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uh this talk that I'm going to give is

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not one that I um a subject that I would

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have originally gravitated toward uh

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about a dozen years ago a conference

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organizer approached me and said I am

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looking for somebody to speak on

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essentially this topic and I thought to

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myself not my cup of tea really uh I I

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Zone in more in classic cases I try to

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couch my studies solidly in American

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history in part because it fascinates me

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because ufology and UFO related events

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are indeed a part of American and world

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history although they're always seen as

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Outsider subjects so also it seemed very

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Sensational in tabloid a national

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inquiration I'm not a conspiracy

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oriented person by Nature at the same

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time I know that by simple definition

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history is in great part defined by

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conspiracies one or more people

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plotting in private for usually some

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nefarious aim and if it happens then it

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comes part of the historical record but

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I don't look for this kind of challenge

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my response to the organizer was well

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that's interesting but let me tell you

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what I'm interested in talking about he

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listened to me very patiently and then

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basically said thank you very much I'm

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looking for somebody to speak about this

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subject if it's not you I'll hire

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yes exactly

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I have come at it several times and

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it became personal as I refined the

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number of people down

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in the presentation to eight individuals

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and then quite honestly as I was

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developing it thought wait a minute

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some of these are classic individuals

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all of whom fit the criteria of a death

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under somewhat questionable

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circumstances or timing or their high

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visibility cut off at a certain moment

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or their relative youth

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but

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of these eight people

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I know

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knew four of them and three of them were

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not just friends they were good friends

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hang on I seem to have gotten myself

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into a situation where I am potentially

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investigating the murders of three of my

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friends

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Lee Harvey Oswald I am of a generation

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where I remember that terrible day when

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the president of the United States was

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murdered it had a tremendous impact on

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my life I was a geeky little kid who

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here worship John Kennedy and I was

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never really able to let go of that

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thread

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as things codified and as I got older

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this notion of the um the lone gunman

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that crazed individual that makes their

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way through and knocks off

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a a famous person in fact I've come to

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kind of Define it in my own way of

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thinking of in American culture sadly it

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has become not that uncommon if you want

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to become well known in a hurry kill

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somebody famous and you're there and cut

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through all the work and save yourself a

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lot of time and energy of course you're

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either dead or in jail for the rest of

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your life

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um

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I do not accept the single gunman Theory

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and I remember on the 30th anniversary

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of the murder of John Kennedy President

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Clinton made some remarks about it and

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he cited something that normally I would

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not only accept as true but as a guiding

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principle for me essentially that when a

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person who is beloved who is a national

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figure who is important to many people

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who is Iconic dies in a seemingly

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senseless accident or act of violence

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we need to ascribe meaning to it because

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the thought that it was just something

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that happened is almost intolerable

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but of course Kennedy was killed by a

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lone gunman I was furious at President

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Clinton and still am because

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he should have known better or he did

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know better but that's the party line

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what we're looking at here involves

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conspiratorial thinking to a degree in

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that some of these people

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people in my field especially now in

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this Golden Age Of Anything Goes

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conspiracy want

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them on a certain level to have been

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murdered rather than you know died of

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some other cause so

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um because I have a lot of factual

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materials sometimes I I'm like my

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colleagues you know give a talk cued by

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the next slide this one I do have to

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work from notes so forgive me for those

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moments when I just appear into the

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paper this gentleman some of you know as

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Jack Ruby

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um we certainly know for a fact that he

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murdered the alleged killer of John

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Kennedy and I say allege because that's

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all it is the one statement that came

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out of Lee Harvey Oswald and Beyond the

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hundreds of thousands of pages that have

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been written about him was I'm a patsy

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I'm a Fall Guy and a lot of people feel

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he was the lone gunman a lot of people

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feel he was part of a conspiracy some of

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us are not even sure if he pulled the

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trigger but one thing is for sure

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this man killed him he is connected with

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the mob and he died of cancer shortly

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after in his jail cell in Dallas more

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about that later

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George Bush was

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um

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he or his people were quite Savvy two

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ways to deflect I remember when Nixon

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was president at a certain point he

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started to do the double v

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which had previous to that been a sign

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of you know we're going to win

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over

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the Vietnam War we're going to get out

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of the war was something that the peace

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movement used and then he co-opted it

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and they stopped

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um

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early on in his presidency he began to

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use the phrase conspiracy theory to put

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doubt people who were coming at him and

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make them seem silly rather than him be

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take responsibility for certain things

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that he said that proved untrue later

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okay our first individual that we're

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going to take a look at

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Mars Ketchum Jessup better known as mkgs

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it was a very popular UFO writer of the

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50s it's alleged that he was murdered

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and that the murder was made to look

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like a suicide or that he was

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brainwashed into taking his own life the

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reason being that he had gotten too

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close to some aspect of the truth about

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UFOs

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there is no question that MK Jessup was

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an outstanding writer and researcher his

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work all published in the 1950s is still

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highly readable and rises above the

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level of most of the so-called golden

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age of UFO literature from the 50s

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except for maybe Donald Kehoe

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it's literate it's articulate it's

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backed up by facts

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one thing to keep in mind as we move

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forward is while we're looking at you

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know kind of the uh more tabloid aspects

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of how these people exited this life

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for me

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it's more than equally important that

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you have some understanding of who they

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were what their lives were about and how

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they lived them without that

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context their deaths will not mean as

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much or or be of you know much value

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looking back on this

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um

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jessup's professional credits were

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varied and impressive he began his

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career as an instructor of astronomy and

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Mathematics at Drake University and the

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University of Michigan we also received

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his Doctorate in astrophysics the

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university then hired him to supervise

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what then would have been the largest

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um

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refracting telescope in the Western

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Hemisphere

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jessup's passion for

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um

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scholarship in the Twin fields of

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archeology and anthropology led him to

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carry out significant independent

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research at Mayan and Incan ruins in

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Central America and abroad as well in

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the process he became an acknowledged

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expert on the megalithic Stoneworks of

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Peru Easter Island and Syria among other

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ancient locations

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it was about this time in his life that

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he became interested in the subject of

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UFO visitations in both the modern and

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ancient world in that he really came on

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the scene as far as uh apostolitizer of

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ancient visitations a decade and a half

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before vandanican blew the subject open

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in the 60s with Chariots of the Gods in

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1956 while preparing to travel to Mexico

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to survey meteorite craters and continue

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his research into ancient visitations

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the Project's sponsor which was the

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University of Michigan learned that this

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man the other felt otherwise felt was a

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distinguished person

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rightly chosen to carry out this

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important job was

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took UFOs and seriously and they fired

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him his related UFO writing now

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um bringing in very little income Jessup

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decided to self-publish his books but he

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was not a very good businessman it fell

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apart two years later he and his wife

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separated the stress in the marriage as

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happens in certain cases where you have

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a partner who becomes dedicated or even

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obsessed with a mission can fracture the

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bonds of even a very deep loving

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marriage and that's what happened to him

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he moved back to his home state of

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Indiana where he worked as an editor and

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pursued his growing interest in psychic

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phenomena

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this wonderful gentleman is Ivan T

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Sanderson Sanderson began his career in

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the late 1930s as a marine as a large

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mammal biologist writing about jungle

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cats and the like I would have loved to

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have met him gregarious guy a brilliant

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writer

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um

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and smart as a whip somewhere along the

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line he became interested in UFOs and

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wrote

249
00:11:10,910 --> 00:11:07,500
two very outstanding books invisible

250
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residents and uninvited visitors

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invisible residence is the first book

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dedicated to underwater UFOs a subject

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that is now of great interest and we

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know of even greater interest to the

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United States and other navies

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um

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this book

258
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um came out his second book on UFOs

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Uninvited visitors in the mid-60s and

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had the publishing distinction of being

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the very first book ever published with

262
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a hologram

263
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that top circle is a cutout in the book

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jacket and there is a hologram glued to

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the book he became good friends with

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Jessup and they communed on this subject

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but at this point Sanderson found Jessup

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in a very gloomy State and complaining

269
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that a series of quote-unquote strange

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events which had he hesitated to discuss

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in detail had pulled him into quote

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a complete world of unreality

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during the time during that time two

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manuscripts which Jessup had submitted

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to a independent publisher were rejected

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increasing his depression

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the writer now left for New York

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um and soon after and but to left New

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York where he had met with Sanderson but

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did not return to Indiana and was

281
00:12:38,449 --> 00:12:36,300
missing for some time

282
00:12:41,870 --> 00:12:38,459
some months later he turned up in

283
00:12:43,730 --> 00:12:41,880
Florida where he had had a serious auto

284
00:12:45,050 --> 00:12:43,740
accident that he was not interested in

285
00:12:47,210 --> 00:12:45,060
talking about

286
00:12:50,329 --> 00:12:47,220
his depression continued to deepen and

287
00:12:52,810 --> 00:12:50,339
in April 1959 he wrote a letter to his

288
00:12:55,250 --> 00:12:52,820
friend the radio host Long John Neville

289
00:12:57,829 --> 00:12:55,260
Neville deserves a quick footnote here

290
00:13:01,730 --> 00:12:57,839
in that he was the first nationally

291
00:13:04,610 --> 00:13:01,740
syndicated radio broadcaster to make

292
00:13:08,449 --> 00:13:04,620
UFOs and their implications a huge

293
00:13:10,910 --> 00:13:08,459
broadcast subject Frank Edwards who will

294
00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:10,920
discuss later kind of followed in his

295
00:13:14,629 --> 00:13:12,180
wake

296
00:13:18,470 --> 00:13:14,639
but the letter that he wrote to um

297
00:13:21,170 --> 00:13:18,480
Neville was in the words of Sanderson

298
00:13:24,129 --> 00:13:21,180
who had seen it a straight suicide note

299
00:13:27,590 --> 00:13:24,139
and on April 20th

300
00:13:30,290 --> 00:13:27,600
the 59 year old Jessup drove to a quiet

301
00:13:34,790 --> 00:13:30,300
spot near where he was living in Dade

302
00:13:37,430 --> 00:13:34,800
County where he connected a hose to the

303
00:13:40,370 --> 00:13:37,440
exhaust pipe ran the other end in his

304
00:13:42,530 --> 00:13:40,380
into his driver's window rolled up the

305
00:13:45,110 --> 00:13:42,540
window stuffed the openings with wet

306
00:13:47,690 --> 00:13:45,120
Rags turned on the cars and was found

307
00:13:52,190 --> 00:13:47,700
the next morning dead of carbon monoxide

308
00:13:55,730 --> 00:13:53,750
there are several things about the

309
00:14:01,009 --> 00:13:55,740
suicide that don't add up

310
00:14:03,230 --> 00:14:01,019
the space between the window and you

311
00:14:05,810 --> 00:14:03,240
know where the hose came in that would

312
00:14:08,509 --> 00:14:05,820
have let in air again was stuffed with

313
00:14:12,949 --> 00:14:08,519
wet Rags however there was no

314
00:14:15,650 --> 00:14:12,959
bucket or bag or any container that

315
00:14:17,210 --> 00:14:15,660
could have held the rags and no sign of

316
00:14:21,170 --> 00:14:17,220
moisture anywhere

317
00:14:24,110 --> 00:14:21,180
for some reason the coroner's office did

318
00:14:27,829 --> 00:14:24,120
not conduct an autopsy which is required

319
00:14:30,650 --> 00:14:27,839
by law in Florida I read an account by a

320
00:14:34,009 --> 00:14:30,660
Oregon researcher named Richard Ogden in

321
00:14:36,410 --> 00:14:34,019
Seattle who claimed that the suicide was

322
00:14:39,470 --> 00:14:36,420
in his terminology a frame up and that

323
00:14:41,889 --> 00:14:39,480
Jessup had been sent an audio tape and

324
00:14:44,449 --> 00:14:41,899
that in listening to it it had

325
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:44,459
brainwashed him or reprogrammed his mind

326
00:14:49,329 --> 00:14:46,639
to kill himself

327
00:14:51,889 --> 00:14:49,339
again one can only

328
00:14:55,509 --> 00:14:51,899
there's nothing to back it up that man's

329
00:14:58,610 --> 00:14:55,519
not alive to confirm the the event

330
00:15:01,250 --> 00:14:58,620
sanderson's wife Sabrina also saw the

331
00:15:04,009 --> 00:15:01,260
suicide note which Jessup had sent to

332
00:15:06,410 --> 00:15:04,019
her husband as well I'm sorry to an

333
00:15:10,509 --> 00:15:06,420
alternative figure and

334
00:15:13,250 --> 00:15:10,519
um was Sir she said it was certainly

335
00:15:17,329 --> 00:15:13,260
a suicide note as well

336
00:15:19,910 --> 00:15:17,339
uh I'm left leaning in toward that this

337
00:15:22,189 --> 00:15:19,920
man did take his life as his career

338
00:15:25,610 --> 00:15:22,199
collapsed around him as his marriage

339
00:15:29,810 --> 00:15:25,620
broke up but the fact that Jessup

340
00:15:32,329 --> 00:15:29,820
himself had talked about that he had

341
00:15:35,389 --> 00:15:32,339
been put into a space of complete

342
00:15:38,030 --> 00:15:35,399
unreality that's kind of a red flag for

343
00:15:40,610 --> 00:15:38,040
somebody doing something to someone also

344
00:15:44,090 --> 00:15:40,620
the idea that you could listen to a tape

345
00:15:45,769 --> 00:15:44,100
recording and it could hypnotize you or

346
00:15:49,670 --> 00:15:45,779
cause you to act in a way you would not

347
00:15:52,670 --> 00:15:49,680
otherwise since I'm left with this case

348
00:15:56,030 --> 00:15:52,680
in Stanton Friedman's terminology of it

349
00:15:58,250 --> 00:15:56,040
being in my gray box more research needs

350
00:16:00,769 --> 00:15:58,260
to be done on it this remarkable woman

351
00:16:02,210 --> 00:16:00,779
is Dorothy kilgallon she was an

352
00:16:04,189 --> 00:16:02,220
extremely well connected media

353
00:16:07,430 --> 00:16:04,199
personality and nationally syndicated

354
00:16:10,250 --> 00:16:07,440
newspaper columnist from the 1940s

355
00:16:12,410 --> 00:16:10,260
through the mid 60s while she was best

356
00:16:14,870 --> 00:16:12,420
known to Americans old enough to

357
00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:14,880
remember this period of of time as a

358
00:16:20,509 --> 00:16:16,800
long time panelist on the then very

359
00:16:23,090 --> 00:16:20,519
popular TV show What's My Line make no

360
00:16:26,110 --> 00:16:23,100
mistake about it she was also a very

361
00:16:28,490 --> 00:16:26,120
serious investigative writer who

362
00:16:30,889 --> 00:16:28,500
maintained a very highly critical

363
00:16:33,410 --> 00:16:30,899
attitude of the way that the Press had

364
00:16:35,629 --> 00:16:33,420
treated the Kennedy assassination and

365
00:16:38,090 --> 00:16:35,639
wrote openly and fairly accurately about

366
00:16:41,449 --> 00:16:38,100
the UFO cover-up in the 50s and into the

367
00:16:44,569 --> 00:16:41,459
60s her column in the now defunct

368
00:16:47,030 --> 00:16:44,579
Journal American which was read by quite

369
00:16:49,790 --> 00:16:47,040
a few a million people every week called

370
00:16:52,730 --> 00:16:49,800
the voice of Broadway alternated between

371
00:16:54,970 --> 00:16:52,740
an old-fashioned celebrity gossip column

372
00:16:58,430 --> 00:16:54,980
and hardcore

373
00:17:01,310 --> 00:16:58,440
investigative writing in 1952 for

374
00:17:03,410 --> 00:17:01,320
example she reported on an unidentified

375
00:17:06,650 --> 00:17:03,420
flying object that had crashed near

376
00:17:09,230 --> 00:17:06,660
spitsburg and Norway rational concern

377
00:17:13,929 --> 00:17:09,240
that the wreck might represent Advanced

378
00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:13,939
Russian technology was undercut by the

379
00:17:18,590 --> 00:17:16,500
testimony of a Norwegian Air Force

380
00:17:21,650 --> 00:17:18,600
Colonel who claimed that the board of

381
00:17:24,470 --> 00:17:21,660
inquiry that had looked into this quote

382
00:17:27,169 --> 00:17:24,480
some time ago a misunderstanding was

383
00:17:31,370 --> 00:17:27,179
caused by saying that the disc probably

384
00:17:35,630 --> 00:17:31,380
was of Soviet origin it has this we wish

385
00:17:39,650 --> 00:17:35,640
to State emphatically not been built by

386
00:17:41,210 --> 00:17:39,660
any country on earth end quote no I take

387
00:17:43,610 --> 00:17:41,220
that back the quote continues the

388
00:17:46,669 --> 00:17:43,620
materials used in the commit in the

389
00:17:49,370 --> 00:17:46,679
construction are completely unknown to

390
00:17:51,230 --> 00:17:49,380
experts having participated in this

391
00:17:53,510 --> 00:17:51,240
investigation eight years later

392
00:17:56,930 --> 00:17:53,520
kilgallon published an article entitled

393
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:56,940
Flying Saucer wreckage assumes Britain

394
00:18:03,650 --> 00:17:59,520
assures Britain of reality

395
00:18:05,690 --> 00:18:03,660
it appeared in May 23 1955 in London's

396
00:18:08,690 --> 00:18:05,700
international news service and was

397
00:18:10,610 --> 00:18:08,700
picked up by numerous newspapers there

398
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:10,620
in the Great Britain and abroad

399
00:18:14,390 --> 00:18:13,440
including the Los Angeles examiner to

400
00:18:17,690 --> 00:18:14,400
quote

401
00:18:19,789 --> 00:18:17,700
I can report today on a story which is

402
00:18:22,730 --> 00:18:19,799
positively spooky and to mention

403
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:22,740
chilling and not to mention chilling

404
00:18:27,890 --> 00:18:25,080
British scientists and Airmen are

405
00:18:29,049 --> 00:18:27,900
explaining the wreckage of one of

406
00:18:31,610 --> 00:18:29,059
um

407
00:18:33,409 --> 00:18:31,620
mysterious flying ship and they're

408
00:18:37,010 --> 00:18:33,419
convinced that the strange aerial

409
00:18:39,470 --> 00:18:37,020
objects are not uh optical illusions but

410
00:18:41,930 --> 00:18:39,480
are flying saucers that originate on

411
00:18:44,330 --> 00:18:41,940
another planet the source of my

412
00:18:46,909 --> 00:18:44,340
information is a British official of

413
00:18:48,470 --> 00:18:46,919
cabinet rank who prefers to remain

414
00:18:51,770 --> 00:18:48,480
unidentified

415
00:18:54,950 --> 00:18:51,780
We Believe on the basis of our inquiry

416
00:18:57,710 --> 00:18:54,960
thus far that the saucers were staffed

417
00:19:00,230 --> 00:18:57,720
by small men probably under four feet

418
00:19:02,210 --> 00:19:00,240
tall it's frightening but there's no

419
00:19:04,250 --> 00:19:02,220
denying the flying saucers come from

420
00:19:06,770 --> 00:19:04,260
another planet

421
00:19:09,529 --> 00:19:06,780
the official quoted scientist as saying

422
00:19:11,930 --> 00:19:09,539
a flying saucer of this type could not

423
00:19:14,150 --> 00:19:11,940
possibly have been constructed on Earth

424
00:19:16,789 --> 00:19:14,160
the British government I learned is

425
00:19:19,549 --> 00:19:16,799
withholding an official report on the

426
00:19:22,250 --> 00:19:19,559
Flying Saucer examination at this time

427
00:19:25,010 --> 00:19:22,260
possibly because it does not want to

428
00:19:28,070 --> 00:19:25,020
frighten the public end quote

429
00:19:30,110 --> 00:19:28,080
we now know that there were such

430
00:19:31,669 --> 00:19:30,120
considerations at this point in the

431
00:19:33,650 --> 00:19:31,679
early 50s

432
00:19:35,810 --> 00:19:33,660
when kagalan made

433
00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:35,820
um while she never made her Source

434
00:19:41,930 --> 00:19:38,880
public and she again is talking about a

435
00:19:45,289 --> 00:19:41,940
cabinet level official this is not some

436
00:19:48,590 --> 00:19:45,299
you know goofball reporter or hack or or

437
00:19:50,810 --> 00:19:48,600
you know cultist key investigators have

438
00:19:54,049 --> 00:19:50,820
speculated that the account originated

439
00:19:56,289 --> 00:19:54,059
with Queen Elizabeth's husband

440
00:20:00,890 --> 00:19:56,299
um Lord mountbatten

441
00:20:03,070 --> 00:20:00,900
Louis mountbatten was a larger than life

442
00:20:06,169 --> 00:20:03,080
figure who was involved military

443
00:20:10,430 --> 00:20:06,179
militarily diplomatically and ultimately

444
00:20:13,090 --> 00:20:10,440
lost his life in a terrorist bombing in

445
00:20:16,669 --> 00:20:13,100
London Gordon Creighton a former

446
00:20:18,970 --> 00:20:16,679
Diplomat and British army officer uh

447
00:20:22,490 --> 00:20:18,980
military I'm sorry Military

448
00:20:24,549 --> 00:20:22,500
Intelligence officer went on to become

449
00:20:27,470 --> 00:20:24,559
editor of Britain's long time

450
00:20:30,230 --> 00:20:27,480
long-running flying saucer review which

451
00:20:32,029 --> 00:20:30,240
is the longest published UFO publication

452
00:20:33,230 --> 00:20:32,039
in certainly the English name language

453
00:20:36,230 --> 00:20:33,240
in history

454
00:20:39,529 --> 00:20:36,240
after reading her column Creighton wrote

455
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:39,539
to Dorothy kilgallon at once seeking

456
00:20:44,090 --> 00:20:41,760
further information but never got a

457
00:20:45,409 --> 00:20:44,100
reply from her and she died a few years

458
00:20:49,250 --> 00:20:45,419
later

459
00:20:52,130 --> 00:20:49,260
we can take it as certain that she had

460
00:20:55,909 --> 00:20:52,140
been effectively removed was Creighton's

461
00:20:58,010 --> 00:20:55,919
comment after Miss kilgallon's death was

462
00:21:00,529 --> 00:20:58,020
reported additional support for this

463
00:21:03,409 --> 00:21:00,539
account can be deduced from a statement

464
00:21:06,710 --> 00:21:03,419
issued at about this time by Britain's

465
00:21:09,590 --> 00:21:06,720
air Chief Marshal Lord Dowling who said

466
00:21:12,289 --> 00:21:09,600
in part quote I am convinced that these

467
00:21:15,230 --> 00:21:12,299
objects do exist and that they are not

468
00:21:17,270 --> 00:21:15,240
manufactured by Any Nation on Earth talk

469
00:21:18,650 --> 00:21:17,280
about disclosure these are public

470
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:18,660
statements made in the international

471
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:22,320
press more than 60 years ago and yet you

472
00:21:26,930 --> 00:21:23,760
know here we are still living in the

473
00:21:28,970 --> 00:21:26,940
funk air marshall Dowling and the shot

474
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:28,980
B4 was Gordon Creighton

475
00:21:32,870 --> 00:21:31,200
this gentleman is my friend and

476
00:21:35,330 --> 00:21:32,880
colleague Timothy good one of the most

477
00:21:38,770 --> 00:21:35,340
respected UFO writers in the United

478
00:21:42,350 --> 00:21:38,780
Kingdom and certainly the best connected

479
00:21:44,149 --> 00:21:42,360
he noted in his very important book

480
00:21:47,210 --> 00:21:44,159
Above Top Secret which should be in

481
00:21:50,090 --> 00:21:47,220
every UFO Library quote why should

482
00:21:53,149 --> 00:21:50,100
Dorothy kilgallon risk her reputation as

483
00:21:55,850 --> 00:21:53,159
one of the USA's star journalists by

484
00:21:57,950 --> 00:21:55,860
propagating an untrue story

485
00:22:00,529 --> 00:21:57,960
to the best of my knowledge she never

486
00:22:02,630 --> 00:22:00,539
denied the story furthermore a number of

487
00:22:05,390 --> 00:22:02,640
similar stories from reliable sources

488
00:22:08,149 --> 00:22:05,400
have surfaced over the years not all of

489
00:22:13,370 --> 00:22:08,159
which can be discounted however absurd

490
00:22:17,870 --> 00:22:16,130
John Fitzgerald Kennedy

491
00:22:20,630 --> 00:22:17,880
following the assassination of President

492
00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:20,640
Kennedy Dorothy kegelen was one of the

493
00:22:27,409 --> 00:22:23,760
very few American journalists not just

494
00:22:30,710 --> 00:22:27,419
with the intellect the Curiosity but the

495
00:22:33,350 --> 00:22:30,720
flat out courage to reject the lone

496
00:22:34,850 --> 00:22:33,360
gunman theory that Lee Harvey Oswald had

497
00:22:38,149 --> 00:22:34,860
acted alone

498
00:22:39,830 --> 00:22:38,159
she also and I have no idea how became

499
00:22:44,390 --> 00:22:39,840
the only journalist

500
00:22:46,850 --> 00:22:44,400
to talk her way into Jack Ruby's jail

501
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:46,860
cell and interview him

502
00:22:51,049 --> 00:22:48,720
the interview and other factors

503
00:22:52,850 --> 00:22:51,059
convinced the reporter that the

504
00:22:55,490 --> 00:22:52,860
president's murder was the result of a

505
00:22:58,430 --> 00:22:55,500
conspiracy about which she laid her

506
00:23:02,810 --> 00:22:58,440
thoughts out in a series of columns even

507
00:23:06,070 --> 00:23:02,820
publishing the text of Ruby's classified

508
00:23:07,870 --> 00:23:06,080
testimony before the Warren Commission

509
00:23:10,850 --> 00:23:07,880
unfortunately

510
00:23:13,390 --> 00:23:10,860
kilgallon was very public about the fact

511
00:23:16,669 --> 00:23:13,400
that she was saving her best material

512
00:23:19,250 --> 00:23:16,679
including the interview with Ruby and

513
00:23:22,190 --> 00:23:19,260
other damning material for a book that

514
00:23:26,450 --> 00:23:22,200
she was writing that may have sealed her

515
00:23:28,750 --> 00:23:26,460
fate because on November 8th of 1965 she

516
00:23:30,649 --> 00:23:28,760
was found dead in her bed in her

517
00:23:33,890 --> 00:23:30,659
Manhattan apartment

518
00:23:37,510 --> 00:23:33,900
however there was a book propped up in

519
00:23:40,190 --> 00:23:37,520
her lap and it was upside down

520
00:23:42,830 --> 00:23:40,200
she did not have her reading glasses on

521
00:23:45,289 --> 00:23:42,840
and could not have read without them

522
00:23:47,270 --> 00:23:45,299
she was wearing a sweater over her

523
00:23:48,549 --> 00:23:47,280
nightgown which she would have never

524
00:23:52,010 --> 00:23:48,559
done

525
00:23:53,810 --> 00:23:52,020
in a room where it was warm enough

526
00:23:56,270 --> 00:23:53,820
she also

527
00:24:00,529 --> 00:23:58,789
had her false eyelashes on which she

528
00:24:03,110 --> 00:24:00,539
would have always taken off before bed

529
00:24:05,810 --> 00:24:03,120
and all this may sound quirky she had a

530
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:05,820
big Manhattan apartment had not slept in

531
00:24:12,470 --> 00:24:09,360
the master bedroom for years she slept

532
00:24:15,230 --> 00:24:12,480
in a guest bedroom and yet her body was

533
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:15,240
found in that bed

534
00:24:20,990 --> 00:24:18,960
Mark Lane a pioneering JFK assassination

535
00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:21,000
researcher and author of the very

536
00:24:25,549 --> 00:24:23,820
important plausible denial was convinced

537
00:24:27,590 --> 00:24:25,559
that Miss kilgallon had been murdered

538
00:24:30,289 --> 00:24:27,600
and that the CIA might have been

539
00:24:33,049 --> 00:24:30,299
involved not surprisingly the extensive

540
00:24:34,789 --> 00:24:33,059
files that kilgallon had built up on the

541
00:24:37,430 --> 00:24:34,799
incriminating aspects of the Kennedy

542
00:24:42,310 --> 00:24:37,440
assassination were missing from her

543
00:24:47,810 --> 00:24:45,230
given this these and other significant

544
00:24:50,930 --> 00:24:47,820
confirmed factors that are too long to

545
00:24:54,169 --> 00:24:50,940
go into I am absolutely convinced that

546
00:24:57,169 --> 00:24:54,179
Darcy kilgallon was murdered

547
00:24:59,029 --> 00:24:57,179
one can speculate that it had to do with

548
00:25:02,029 --> 00:24:59,039
her interest in and fairly accurate

549
00:25:03,770 --> 00:25:02,039
reporting about the UFO phenomena but I

550
00:25:06,529 --> 00:25:03,780
think for the forces that be in the mid

551
00:25:09,289 --> 00:25:06,539
60s in the United States intelligence

552
00:25:12,770 --> 00:25:09,299
community that would have been back

553
00:25:14,510 --> 00:25:12,780
burnered I think she was killed for what

554
00:25:16,370 --> 00:25:14,520
she was going to reveal about the

555
00:25:17,930 --> 00:25:16,380
Kennedy assassination

556
00:25:19,669 --> 00:25:17,940
it's fair though to keep open

557
00:25:23,630 --> 00:25:19,679
speculation that it might have been

558
00:25:27,890 --> 00:25:26,210
one of the two Central figures in my

559
00:25:31,549 --> 00:25:27,900
investigation here that we'll be talking

560
00:25:34,610 --> 00:25:31,559
about and one of my ecological Heroes is

561
00:25:37,430 --> 00:25:34,620
Dr James E McDonald

562
00:25:39,710 --> 00:25:37,440
he was a highly respected atmospheric

563
00:25:41,870 --> 00:25:39,720
physicist who attempted to bring the

564
00:25:44,330 --> 00:25:41,880
subject of UFOs to the series attention

565
00:25:47,269 --> 00:25:44,340
of both the American public and the

566
00:25:49,190 --> 00:25:47,279
established scientific Community much to

567
00:25:51,649 --> 00:25:49,200
the detriment of both his professional

568
00:25:54,110 --> 00:25:51,659
reputation and personal life

569
00:25:57,470 --> 00:25:54,120
his lectures and writings which are

570
00:25:59,990 --> 00:25:57,480
still available online and in print ring

571
00:26:02,990 --> 00:26:00,000
with passion Insight intelligence and

572
00:26:06,230 --> 00:26:03,000
anger and are as timely now as they were

573
00:26:08,149 --> 00:26:06,240
back then he alleged that the members of

574
00:26:10,909 --> 00:26:08,159
the National Academy of Science and the

575
00:26:13,430 --> 00:26:10,919
oh he was it's alleged that this member

576
00:26:16,070 --> 00:26:13,440
of the National Academy of Sciences the

577
00:26:18,409 --> 00:26:16,080
American Meteorological Society and the

578
00:26:20,930 --> 00:26:18,419
institute for atmospheric physics was

579
00:26:23,029 --> 00:26:20,940
murdered and that the murder was made to

580
00:26:27,590 --> 00:26:23,039
look like a suicide this is the

581
00:26:29,710 --> 00:26:27,600
definitive biography on McDonald it was

582
00:26:32,630 --> 00:26:29,720
written by the great Ann druffle

583
00:26:36,110 --> 00:26:32,640
California resident and now a very maybe

584
00:26:38,029 --> 00:26:36,120
the most Senior Living UFO researcher it

585
00:26:40,970 --> 00:26:38,039
is superb it's one of the finest

586
00:26:42,529 --> 00:26:40,980
biographies I've ever read not to

587
00:26:44,570 --> 00:26:42,539
mention one of the finest UFO

588
00:26:48,409 --> 00:26:44,580
biographies ever written

589
00:26:51,049 --> 00:26:48,419
James McDonald was born in 1920 earned a

590
00:26:53,930 --> 00:26:51,059
ba at the University of Omaha and Ms

591
00:26:55,070 --> 00:26:53,940
from MIT and his PhD at Iowa State

592
00:26:57,890 --> 00:26:55,080
University

593
00:27:00,590 --> 00:26:57,900
his investigative specialty was Cloud

594
00:27:02,750 --> 00:27:00,600
physics but a wide range in curiosity

595
00:27:05,029 --> 00:27:02,760
led him into other areas of scientific

596
00:27:08,769 --> 00:27:05,039
inquiry as well

597
00:27:11,990 --> 00:27:08,779
on a drive through Arizona in 1954

598
00:27:15,049 --> 00:27:12,000
he and four friend he and three friends

599
00:27:16,730 --> 00:27:15,059
had a UFO sighting it was not

600
00:27:18,590 --> 00:27:16,740
life-changing for him but it was

601
00:27:21,169 --> 00:27:18,600
something that he continued to think

602
00:27:23,330 --> 00:27:21,179
about and he did make an official report

603
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:23,340
to the United States Air Force on the

604
00:27:29,510 --> 00:27:26,340
proper forms never heard back from him

605
00:27:32,750 --> 00:27:29,520
in 1958 however he began investigating

606
00:27:35,390 --> 00:27:32,760
the subject very quietly but in Earnest

607
00:27:39,110 --> 00:27:35,400
and Affiliated himself with the now

608
00:27:42,590 --> 00:27:39,120
defunct National Committee on the

609
00:27:43,789 --> 00:27:42,600
investigation of aerial phenomena AKA

610
00:27:45,830 --> 00:27:43,799
nycap

611
00:27:47,570 --> 00:27:45,840
in the process he grew to feel that

612
00:27:50,090 --> 00:27:47,580
neither the Air Force's Project Blue

613
00:27:52,190 --> 00:27:50,100
Book nor the scientific Community were

614
00:27:54,590 --> 00:27:52,200
paying proper attention to this

615
00:27:58,610 --> 00:27:54,600
phenomena the well-published Michigan

616
00:28:00,470 --> 00:27:58,620
UFO flap of 1966 only deepened his

617
00:28:03,110 --> 00:28:00,480
curiosity and made him all the more

618
00:28:06,890 --> 00:28:03,120
interested in conducting his own UFO

619
00:28:09,289 --> 00:28:06,900
survey as a result he applied for and

620
00:28:11,029 --> 00:28:09,299
secured a small Grant from The Office of

621
00:28:12,890 --> 00:28:11,039
Naval Research to review the Project

622
00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:12,900
Blue Book material kept at

623
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:14,960
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base in Ohio

624
00:28:22,269 --> 00:28:18,960
the Oni felt that certain kinds of

625
00:28:26,269 --> 00:28:22,279
clouds might be responsible for

626
00:28:28,909 --> 00:28:26,279
perceived UFO phenomena and being an

627
00:28:31,430 --> 00:28:28,919
acknowledged credentialed Cloud expert

628
00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:31,440
McDonald was given permission and

629
00:28:36,529 --> 00:28:33,360
encouraged to look through this material

630
00:28:40,970 --> 00:28:39,110
during his visit to the base he received

631
00:28:44,269 --> 00:28:40,980
permission and went through the material

632
00:28:47,330 --> 00:28:44,279
and when he finished it he requested a

633
00:28:49,970 --> 00:28:47,340
photocopy and was told that while he was

634
00:28:53,510 --> 00:28:49,980
reading it it had been reclassified and

635
00:28:54,529 --> 00:28:53,520
copies were no longer available

636
00:28:57,010 --> 00:28:54,539
um

637
00:28:59,630 --> 00:28:57,020
it proved to him

638
00:29:01,490 --> 00:28:59,640
deductive reasoning that there was

639
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:01,500
something that they were covering up and

640
00:29:06,649 --> 00:29:04,320
that more work needed to be done in this

641
00:29:08,090 --> 00:29:06,659
very important area

642
00:29:11,330 --> 00:29:08,100
well

643
00:29:14,510 --> 00:29:11,340
Dr Alan J Allen heineck who is one of

644
00:29:17,810 --> 00:29:14,520
the great Heroes of ufology who is so

645
00:29:22,250 --> 00:29:17,820
was so famous in his time that he plays

646
00:29:25,430 --> 00:29:22,260
himself in the final control room scene

647
00:29:27,769 --> 00:29:25,440
in Close Encounters of the Third Kind

648
00:29:29,350 --> 00:29:27,779
the guy that looked like this wasn't an

649
00:29:35,990 --> 00:29:29,360
actor looking like this it was him

650
00:29:41,389 --> 00:29:36,000
however from 1952 until about 1970 the

651
00:29:43,430 --> 00:29:41,399
great Dr heineck was a shill for the CIA

652
00:29:45,669 --> 00:29:43,440
he was living a double life he was head

653
00:29:48,470 --> 00:29:45,679
of astronomy for Northwestern University

654
00:29:51,830 --> 00:29:48,480
and he was also involved in

655
00:29:55,130 --> 00:29:51,840
disseminating propaganda putting forward

656
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:55,140
nonsensical theories like swamp gas and

657
00:30:02,230 --> 00:29:59,039
in codifying all of the and

658
00:30:06,950 --> 00:30:02,240
debunking in the very now famous

659
00:30:11,830 --> 00:30:06,960
1952 or 1953 Robertson panel meeting

660
00:30:16,070 --> 00:30:11,840
well during the visit to the base

661
00:30:18,649 --> 00:30:16,080
McDonald learned of the level of of

662
00:30:21,169 --> 00:30:18,659
heineck's involvement and made a point

663
00:30:25,130 --> 00:30:21,179
of confronting him and as they say in

664
00:30:27,710 --> 00:30:25,140
the vernacular tore him a new one

665
00:30:33,049 --> 00:30:27,720
and this so

666
00:30:37,730 --> 00:30:33,059
um uh affected heinek that it was the

667
00:30:42,110 --> 00:30:37,740
factor that he credit credited with

668
00:30:44,389 --> 00:30:42,120
going public and basically saying um

669
00:30:46,549 --> 00:30:44,399
uh I

670
00:30:48,230 --> 00:30:46,559
I screwed up and then becoming a

671
00:30:51,049 --> 00:30:48,240
champion for the truth

672
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:51,059
Jacques valet still one of the most

673
00:30:54,950 --> 00:30:53,279
important voices in the work was

674
00:30:57,710 --> 00:30:54,960
impressed enough with this Newcomer's

675
00:31:00,590 --> 00:30:57,720
resolve that he later wrote it is clear

676
00:31:03,230 --> 00:31:00,600
that an entire area era has come to an

677
00:31:07,010 --> 00:31:03,240
end this man has many contacts many

678
00:31:09,110 --> 00:31:07,020
ideals and he is afraid of nothing from

679
00:31:12,710 --> 00:31:09,120
that point on almost all of McDonald's

680
00:31:14,769 --> 00:31:12,720
life work was dedicated to proselytizing

681
00:31:18,350 --> 00:31:14,779
about this meeting with official

682
00:31:21,850 --> 00:31:18,360
scientific groups press organizations

683
00:31:25,610 --> 00:31:21,860
and pounding away at the fact

684
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:25,620
unfortunately his criticism of Edward U

685
00:31:32,830 --> 00:31:29,360
Condon who had headed the Colorado

686
00:31:36,409 --> 00:31:32,840
University's review of Project Blue Book

687
00:31:38,750 --> 00:31:36,419
and basically said everything's fine uh

688
00:31:42,049 --> 00:31:38,760
received tremendous hire from him and he

689
00:31:43,330 --> 00:31:42,059
back from Condon but it was Donald K

690
00:31:47,090 --> 00:31:43,340
Menzel

691
00:31:51,590 --> 00:31:47,100
The Godfather to Arch debunker Philip

692
00:31:54,590 --> 00:31:51,600
class who really came after him after he

693
00:31:56,149 --> 00:31:54,600
came after Menzel Menzel lived an

694
00:31:58,850 --> 00:31:56,159
ultimate double life he was the head of

695
00:32:00,409 --> 00:31:58,860
Harvard astronomy studies Anna Stanton

696
00:32:03,830 --> 00:32:00,419
Friedman brilliantly established in

697
00:32:05,330 --> 00:32:03,840
research years ago also a very loyal

698
00:32:08,389 --> 00:32:05,340
member of the American intelligence

699
00:32:09,889 --> 00:32:08,399
Community the forces were arrayed

700
00:32:10,850 --> 00:32:09,899
against

701
00:32:12,769 --> 00:32:10,860
um

702
00:32:15,590 --> 00:32:12,779
Dr McDonald

703
00:32:17,690 --> 00:32:15,600
class and I had a go-to I won't give it

704
00:32:19,750 --> 00:32:17,700
because we're actually going to not be

705
00:32:24,289 --> 00:32:19,760
able to finish this talk

706
00:32:26,029 --> 00:32:24,299
but class was nothing if not clever and

707
00:32:28,909 --> 00:32:26,039
he immediately realized his best

708
00:32:31,010 --> 00:32:28,919
strategy was not calling names or citing

709
00:32:35,870 --> 00:32:31,020
silly things like swampcast

710
00:32:40,789 --> 00:32:35,880
but he contacted the Navy office that

711
00:32:42,590 --> 00:32:40,799
had given a grant to McDonald and

712
00:32:46,010 --> 00:32:42,600
informed them that he was loopy about

713
00:32:48,769 --> 00:32:46,020
UFOs the grant was removed

714
00:32:53,149 --> 00:32:48,779
the subject continued to spin against

715
00:32:55,549 --> 00:32:53,159
him in 1970 McDonald was invited to

716
00:32:57,830 --> 00:32:55,559
testify before the Senate on hearings

717
00:33:00,590 --> 00:32:57,840
about what was called the SST the

718
00:33:05,029 --> 00:33:00,600
supersonic transport which in fact was

719
00:33:07,549 --> 00:33:05,039
the um the Concord and he was talking

720
00:33:10,190 --> 00:33:07,559
about the potential for pollution in

721
00:33:12,710 --> 00:33:10,200
terms of cloud physics but when the

722
00:33:14,990 --> 00:33:12,720
Congressional Representatives sitting in

723
00:33:16,730 --> 00:33:15,000
on this discussion learn that he thought

724
00:33:20,350 --> 00:33:16,740
flying sauces and little green men were

725
00:33:23,870 --> 00:33:20,360
real were real he was humiliated and

726
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:23,880
brought into a level of I guess you

727
00:33:29,090 --> 00:33:26,640
would call clinical depression

728
00:33:31,070 --> 00:33:29,100
at this point his wife who had been

729
00:33:34,190 --> 00:33:31,080
tremendously loyal to him

730
00:33:36,110 --> 00:33:34,200
um she had been he hit a stranger for

731
00:33:37,870 --> 00:33:36,120
several years just obsessed with this

732
00:33:40,250 --> 00:33:37,880
subject

733
00:33:43,669 --> 00:33:40,260
my sense is she was a wonderful woman

734
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:43,679
and a great partner but he cut her off

735
00:33:48,169 --> 00:33:45,600
she fell in love with another man she

736
00:33:50,149 --> 00:33:48,179
approached him about divorce and he

737
00:33:51,370 --> 00:33:50,159
started to plan how he was going to kill

738
00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:51,380
himself

739
00:33:57,350 --> 00:33:53,519
he bought a pistol

740
00:34:01,190 --> 00:33:57,360
and he shot himself and

741
00:34:03,169 --> 00:34:01,200
he survived but he was almost blind his

742
00:34:06,590 --> 00:34:03,179
wife rallied to his side along with

743
00:34:08,210 --> 00:34:06,600
their two daughters they encouraged him

744
00:34:11,570 --> 00:34:08,220
in his work his sight returned enough

745
00:34:15,310 --> 00:34:11,580
that he could return to the Department

746
00:34:18,230 --> 00:34:15,320
of atmospheric physics in Phoenix

747
00:34:21,470 --> 00:34:18,240
and worked very hard to make those

748
00:34:23,510 --> 00:34:21,480
closest to him understand that he was

749
00:34:26,030 --> 00:34:23,520
getting better in fact he was just

750
00:34:30,409 --> 00:34:26,040
working very hard to make it seem that

751
00:34:35,030 --> 00:34:30,419
he was getting better and on Tuesday May

752
00:34:38,690 --> 00:34:35,040
13 1971 he left work had the cab driver

753
00:34:40,310 --> 00:34:38,700
drive him into downtown Phoenix in front

754
00:34:43,250 --> 00:34:40,320
of a pawn store

755
00:34:44,750 --> 00:34:43,260
uh could see enough to walk in and buy a

756
00:34:47,270 --> 00:34:44,760
gun and some bullets

757
00:34:49,730 --> 00:34:47,280
another cab took him to a remote area

758
00:34:52,490 --> 00:34:49,740
out near the desert he walked mile to a

759
00:34:53,930 --> 00:34:52,500
bridge and shot himself

760
00:34:59,210 --> 00:34:53,940
and died

761
00:35:01,970 --> 00:34:59,220
I can only say that while Dr Menzel and

762
00:35:04,490 --> 00:35:01,980
Edward yukonden and Philip class did not

763
00:35:07,730 --> 00:35:04,500
pull the trigger they contributed to

764
00:35:11,210 --> 00:35:07,740
this man's death as much as they had he

765
00:35:13,130 --> 00:35:11,220
was a true casualty of courage and UFO

766
00:35:15,650 --> 00:35:13,140
truth and we should always remember him

767
00:35:17,870 --> 00:35:15,660
as one of the most important and

768
00:35:21,290 --> 00:35:17,880
valuable figures in the work his

769
00:35:22,849 --> 00:35:21,300
obituary next figure is Frank Edwards

770
00:35:26,230 --> 00:35:22,859
Frank Edwards was one of the most

771
00:35:29,210 --> 00:35:26,240
popular American broadcasters in history

772
00:35:31,370 --> 00:35:29,220
he had a show that was syndicated on

773
00:35:34,130 --> 00:35:31,380
hundreds of radio shows around the

774
00:35:38,030 --> 00:35:34,140
country and wrote a series of

775
00:35:41,210 --> 00:35:38,040
best-selling books on flying saucers and

776
00:35:45,829 --> 00:35:41,220
the Paranormal and the strange he was

777
00:35:47,450 --> 00:35:45,839
the first radio personality to bring one

778
00:35:51,950 --> 00:35:47,460
of the great heroes in first grade

779
00:35:53,690 --> 00:35:51,960
rationalist of of UFO publishing uh into

780
00:35:56,390 --> 00:35:53,700
the realm of being a public celebrity

781
00:36:00,170 --> 00:35:56,400
and that was Donald Kehoe who was a

782
00:36:02,390 --> 00:36:00,180
regular guest on his shows

783
00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:02,400
and these books were out and out best

784
00:36:13,010 --> 00:36:11,329
okay

785
00:36:15,290 --> 00:36:13,020
um

786
00:36:18,050 --> 00:36:15,300
this of course is the first book written

787
00:36:19,790 --> 00:36:18,060
about the phenomena and

788
00:36:23,270 --> 00:36:19,800
um

789
00:36:25,490 --> 00:36:23,280
he also had his regular guest uh gray

790
00:36:29,690 --> 00:36:25,500
Barker one of the most colorful figures

791
00:36:32,329 --> 00:36:29,700
of um UF Odum a teller of tales a

792
00:36:35,030 --> 00:36:32,339
chronicler of wild truths and the

793
00:36:36,589 --> 00:36:35,040
creator of the most paranoid title book

794
00:36:39,230 --> 00:36:36,599
in ufology

795
00:36:42,589 --> 00:36:39,240
and the man who popularized the notion

796
00:36:44,630 --> 00:36:42,599
of Men In Black if you take it seriously

797
00:36:46,790 --> 00:36:44,640
you've had Men In Black experiences or

798
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:46,800
laughter behinds off at the very funny

799
00:36:51,589 --> 00:36:49,440
movies it is gray Barker that you have

800
00:36:54,670 --> 00:36:51,599
to thank for that

801
00:36:58,190 --> 00:36:54,680
um this brings us into

802
00:37:00,410 --> 00:36:58,200
in 1957 nycap

803
00:37:05,750 --> 00:37:03,490
worked with him on more broadcasts and

804
00:37:07,970 --> 00:37:05,760
America was really starting to take

805
00:37:11,150 --> 00:37:07,980
greater attention to the UFO phenomena

806
00:37:13,790 --> 00:37:11,160
because of this one broadcaster this All

807
00:37:17,630 --> 00:37:13,800
Leads up to a UFO conference that took

808
00:37:21,650 --> 00:37:17,640
place in New York City and was he was

809
00:37:28,190 --> 00:37:21,660
scheduled to be the lead individual it

810
00:37:31,069 --> 00:37:28,200
was going to be in June of 1967 and take

811
00:37:32,349 --> 00:37:31,079
place on June 24th which would have been

812
00:37:37,690 --> 00:37:32,359
the

813
00:37:41,450 --> 00:37:37,700
sightings that

814
00:37:44,170 --> 00:37:41,460
are depicted here again we have a

815
00:37:49,310 --> 00:37:44,180
portrait of Edwards it was gray Barker

816
00:37:53,630 --> 00:37:49,320
who was close to him who kind of sounded

817
00:37:57,410 --> 00:37:53,640
the first alarm that uh he had gotten a

818
00:38:01,130 --> 00:37:57,420
message that Edwards was not going to

819
00:38:04,670 --> 00:38:01,140
live to or was going to die at the

820
00:38:06,410 --> 00:38:04,680
conference coming from Gray Barker

821
00:38:09,410 --> 00:38:06,420
people took it with a grain of salt

822
00:38:12,349 --> 00:38:09,420
Edwards included but long john Neville

823
00:38:15,710 --> 00:38:12,359
received similar information and he took

824
00:38:17,390 --> 00:38:15,720
it seriously and again this was a huge

825
00:38:20,450 --> 00:38:17,400
conference hundreds of people were right

826
00:38:23,630 --> 00:38:20,460
in that audience on that morning to find

827
00:38:26,270 --> 00:38:23,640
out from the MC that

828
00:38:28,670 --> 00:38:26,280
Edwards had been found dead in his hotel

829
00:38:30,770 --> 00:38:28,680
room the night before

830
00:38:32,930 --> 00:38:30,780
I don't know what his dietary habits

831
00:38:35,870 --> 00:38:32,940
were I don't know if he was a smoker but

832
00:38:38,750 --> 00:38:35,880
he was overweight and yet

833
00:38:40,730 --> 00:38:38,760
the timing on this the two warnings one

834
00:38:44,450 --> 00:38:40,740
we can take with a grain of salt the

835
00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:44,460
other from an absolutely reliable and

836
00:38:50,089 --> 00:38:47,280
credible broadcaster lead me to think

837
00:38:51,910 --> 00:38:50,099
there was a good chance that he was

838
00:38:54,770 --> 00:38:51,920
murdered again

839
00:38:58,130 --> 00:38:54,780
No Smoking Gun here but a lot of smoke

840
00:39:01,370 --> 00:38:58,140
I'm gonna quickly Zoom through this next

841
00:39:04,370 --> 00:39:01,380
one because again time is of the essence

842
00:39:06,170 --> 00:39:04,380
and also I'm going to quickly Zoom

843
00:39:08,089 --> 00:39:06,180
through this one I hope maybe I'll give

844
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:08,099
those at a different point

845
00:39:14,510 --> 00:39:11,040
but let's jump to Grand Birdsall Graham

846
00:39:16,490 --> 00:39:14,520
Birdsall in his time was arguably the

847
00:39:20,569 --> 00:39:16,500
most important central figure and

848
00:39:23,210 --> 00:39:20,579
linchpin Bar None in British ufology he

849
00:39:25,310 --> 00:39:23,220
was editor-in-chief of England's UFO

850
00:39:27,470 --> 00:39:25,320
magazine not to be confused with the

851
00:39:30,710 --> 00:39:27,480
American Magazine of the same name

852
00:39:33,290 --> 00:39:30,720
uh it started out as a mimeographed uh

853
00:39:38,210 --> 00:39:33,300
little uh bulletin in the early 80s and

854
00:39:41,810 --> 00:39:38,220
by the time he passed in 2003 was the

855
00:39:43,849 --> 00:39:41,820
finest mass culture UFO magazine ever

856
00:39:45,589 --> 00:39:43,859
published in the English language this

857
00:39:47,690 --> 00:39:45,599
was still very much the era of print

858
00:39:50,210 --> 00:39:47,700
Publications they are disappearing now

859
00:39:52,790 --> 00:39:50,220
because of the digital world they were

860
00:39:55,970 --> 00:39:52,800
beautifully laid out they had the top

861
00:39:58,670 --> 00:39:55,980
writers they were extremely timely

862
00:40:01,490 --> 00:39:58,680
dealing with the most important cases

863
00:40:04,730 --> 00:40:01,500
Graham also had a gift that almost none

864
00:40:06,950 --> 00:40:04,740
of us in ufology have he was a brilliant

865
00:40:09,710 --> 00:40:06,960
businessman and

866
00:40:12,290 --> 00:40:09,720
he made the magazine make money and he

867
00:40:14,210 --> 00:40:12,300
organized dozens and dozens of

868
00:40:16,910 --> 00:40:14,220
conferences over more than two decades

869
00:40:19,849 --> 00:40:16,920
every one of them absolutely first class

870
00:40:22,370 --> 00:40:19,859
he brought us in not just from all over

871
00:40:26,450 --> 00:40:22,380
the UK but he brought colleagues friends

872
00:40:28,970 --> 00:40:26,460
speakers in from all over the world he

873
00:40:32,870 --> 00:40:28,980
was born and bred in Leeds he was a big

874
00:40:34,490 --> 00:40:32,880
bear of a guy I loved him if he believed

875
00:40:37,730 --> 00:40:34,500
in what you were doing

876
00:40:39,170 --> 00:40:37,740
he was your friend forever if he didn't

877
00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:39,180
believe in what you're doing and thought

878
00:40:46,130 --> 00:40:40,740
you were a liar or Charlotte and God

879
00:40:48,950 --> 00:40:46,140
help you in 2003 at the height of his

880
00:40:51,530 --> 00:40:48,960
power really he was the Mover and Shaker

881
00:40:53,870 --> 00:40:51,540
we had great writers you had Tim good

882
00:40:56,450 --> 00:40:53,880
Nick Pope Jenny Randalls you name him in

883
00:41:01,190 --> 00:40:56,460
the UK but he was the man who made it

884
00:41:03,109 --> 00:41:01,200
all happen and at the age of 49 much to

885
00:41:05,630 --> 00:41:03,119
my horror and shock I got a

886
00:41:07,670 --> 00:41:05,640
communication from England that he had

887
00:41:11,150 --> 00:41:07,680
had uh what was alleged to be a cerebral

888
00:41:13,670 --> 00:41:11,160
aneurysm and he died three days later if

889
00:41:16,310 --> 00:41:13,680
there was one person worth taking out so

890
00:41:19,370 --> 00:41:16,320
to say in the entire British

891
00:41:21,609 --> 00:41:19,380
establishment of UFO studies to do the

892
00:41:24,770 --> 00:41:21,619
most damage it was Graham

893
00:41:26,569 --> 00:41:24,780
I knew him well enough that the last

894
00:41:29,569 --> 00:41:26,579
time I saw him about nine months before

895
00:41:32,329 --> 00:41:29,579
he died I was staying over his house

896
00:41:35,950 --> 00:41:32,339
with his wife Christine and his daughter

897
00:41:38,810 --> 00:41:35,960
Helen and we were staying up late late

898
00:41:42,109 --> 00:41:38,820
we were drinking too much we were chain

899
00:41:44,089 --> 00:41:42,119
smoking a topic of conversation we have

900
00:41:46,910 --> 00:41:44,099
to stop drinking too much and we really

901
00:41:49,430 --> 00:41:46,920
have to stop smoking and he showed me a

902
00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:49,440
French documentary that like the

903
00:41:54,410 --> 00:41:52,560
documentary that um uh Bob showed you

904
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:54,420
yesterday the Disney documentary was

905
00:41:59,450 --> 00:41:56,400
shown once and then yanked from the air

906
00:42:01,670 --> 00:41:59,460
but he had a colleague who had a VHS

907
00:42:03,950 --> 00:42:01,680
tape right there slammed it in

908
00:42:05,810 --> 00:42:03,960
and at about one in the morning he said

909
00:42:07,670 --> 00:42:05,820
I want you to watch this this with me

910
00:42:09,470 --> 00:42:07,680
mate and let me know what you think it

911
00:42:12,170 --> 00:42:09,480
was in French but there was enough

912
00:42:14,690 --> 00:42:12,180
English in it that you got the sense of

913
00:42:17,630 --> 00:42:14,700
what it was and what it purported to be

914
00:42:20,270 --> 00:42:17,640
and if it was a put up job it was

915
00:42:22,010 --> 00:42:20,280
brilliant editing was that Stanley

916
00:42:26,690 --> 00:42:22,020
Kubrick had been enrolled by the White

917
00:42:28,849 --> 00:42:26,700
House to create a fake moon landing just

918
00:42:32,930 --> 00:42:28,859
in case the moon landing didn't happen

919
00:42:34,370 --> 00:42:32,940
what the real concern was was more the

920
00:42:35,990 --> 00:42:34,380
Hasselblad cameras these are

921
00:42:38,569 --> 00:42:36,000
state-of-the-art cameras they were in

922
00:42:40,910 --> 00:42:38,579
lead in casing but were they going to

923
00:42:43,190 --> 00:42:40,920
get affected by gamma and beta rays and

924
00:42:46,069 --> 00:42:43,200
that we would get men to the moon and

925
00:42:47,810 --> 00:42:46,079
not have footage to show it Nixon a

926
00:42:49,609 --> 00:42:47,820
textbook paranoia

927
00:42:51,550 --> 00:42:49,619
May well have

928
00:42:54,410 --> 00:42:51,560
commissioned such a thing

929
00:42:56,030 --> 00:42:54,420
and nobody better than Kubrick set him

930
00:42:58,970 --> 00:42:56,040
up in a big Sound Studio in the

931
00:43:01,490 --> 00:42:58,980
southwest unlimited budget and I fully

932
00:43:03,230 --> 00:43:01,500
believe that this happened I should say

933
00:43:06,349 --> 00:43:03,240
I also believe that one of the main

934
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:06,359
reasons that there is such a ferociously

935
00:43:12,410 --> 00:43:08,160
active we never went to the moon

936
00:43:13,550 --> 00:43:12,420
campaign is that some of the stills of

937
00:43:14,930 --> 00:43:13,560
the set

938
00:43:18,349 --> 00:43:14,940
actually

939
00:43:22,569 --> 00:43:18,359
a wide enough frame I've seen to show

940
00:43:27,470 --> 00:43:22,579
ceiling lights and to show problems with

941
00:43:29,510 --> 00:43:27,480
the Shadows case closed on that but the

942
00:43:31,930 --> 00:43:29,520
film was brilliant and it opens in a

943
00:43:35,630 --> 00:43:31,940
green room with Henry Kissinger

944
00:43:39,290 --> 00:43:35,640
a national security advisor to George

945
00:43:41,690 --> 00:43:39,300
Bush Senior Brent scowcroft a Pantheon

946
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:41,700
of major Heavies going back to the 90s

947
00:43:46,790 --> 00:43:43,920
and they're talking and then they cut to

948
00:43:49,010 --> 00:43:46,800
footage with Stanley Kubrick's Widow I

949
00:43:50,510 --> 00:43:49,020
was mesmerized and when it was finished

950
00:43:52,910 --> 00:43:50,520
he said what do you think I said I think

951
00:43:54,589 --> 00:43:52,920
it may be real but it could be a put up

952
00:43:57,710 --> 00:43:54,599
job he said that's what I feel I'm going

953
00:43:59,150 --> 00:43:57,720
to keep studying it and I'll publish the

954
00:44:01,069 --> 00:43:59,160
results and I'll let you know beforehand

955
00:44:03,710 --> 00:44:01,079
and a few months later he called me in

956
00:44:05,569 --> 00:44:03,720
New York and said I've established it it

957
00:44:07,250 --> 00:44:05,579
is a fake you know thanks for hearing me

958
00:44:10,910 --> 00:44:07,260
out

959
00:44:13,730 --> 00:44:10,920
why do I think that Graham wasn't

960
00:44:15,290 --> 00:44:13,740
murdered and this got me in trouble with

961
00:44:18,589 --> 00:44:15,300
some of my dear friends and colleagues

962
00:44:20,569 --> 00:44:18,599
in Great Britain because again how could

963
00:44:23,030 --> 00:44:20,579
it be that this guy

964
00:44:24,230 --> 00:44:23,040
not one of the most but the most

965
00:44:25,790 --> 00:44:24,240
important guy I'll tell you how

966
00:44:27,770 --> 00:44:25,800
important he was

967
00:44:31,309 --> 00:44:27,780
um because of the contract I had with

968
00:44:34,609 --> 00:44:31,319
the Sci-Fi channel to help promote

969
00:44:37,069 --> 00:44:34,619
um uh the mini-series taken with movers

970
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:37,079
and shakers in New York City

971
00:44:41,530 --> 00:44:39,119
um in a very very special closed event

972
00:44:44,510 --> 00:44:41,540
for almost 200 people

973
00:44:46,130 --> 00:44:44,520
the director of Special Projects who's a

974
00:44:48,650 --> 00:44:46,140
good friend of mine Larry landsman I

975
00:44:51,109 --> 00:44:48,660
introduced him to Graham and Graham's

976
00:44:53,690 --> 00:44:51,119
remarkable personality won Larry over in

977
00:44:56,030 --> 00:44:53,700
an evening and he hired him if Graham

978
00:44:57,950 --> 00:44:56,040
had lived he died in September had he

979
00:45:01,130 --> 00:44:57,960
lived in October he would have been

980
00:45:03,349 --> 00:45:01,140
touring all over India as the point man

981
00:45:07,190 --> 00:45:03,359
spokesman for the Sci-Fi Channel's

982
00:45:08,589 --> 00:45:07,200
upcoming Indian miniseries broadcast in

983
00:45:15,050 --> 00:45:08,599
Hindi

984
00:45:16,730 --> 00:45:15,060
the miniseries but why do I think he

985
00:45:19,010 --> 00:45:16,740
wasn't murdered

986
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:19,020
Graham was overweight

987
00:45:25,130 --> 00:45:22,560
Graham was a type A driven character

988
00:45:28,849 --> 00:45:25,140
work work work work work

989
00:45:31,910 --> 00:45:28,859
an insomniac like me not an alcoholic

990
00:45:35,530 --> 00:45:31,920
definitely but definitely a drinker a

991
00:45:39,109 --> 00:45:35,540
chain smoker ate a heavy British diet

992
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:39,119
but most important in a way he had joked

993
00:45:43,130 --> 00:45:41,520
with me many years before that he

994
00:45:47,030 --> 00:45:43,140
thought he'd never live to be 50 years

995
00:45:50,450 --> 00:45:47,040
old I said why he said nobody no man in

996
00:45:52,670 --> 00:45:50,460
my family my uncles my grandfathers my

997
00:45:55,089 --> 00:45:52,680
father ever lived to be 50. it might

998
00:45:58,069 --> 00:45:55,099
have been programmed into his DNA

999
00:46:01,490 --> 00:45:58,079
then again because he might have said

1000
00:46:02,990 --> 00:46:01,500
that publicly sometime and you know some

1001
00:46:05,450 --> 00:46:03,000
darker forces within British

1002
00:46:08,990 --> 00:46:05,460
intelligence as ah we'll give him the

1003
00:46:10,730 --> 00:46:09,000
old cerebral aneurysm shot and people

1004
00:46:13,370 --> 00:46:10,740
will say oh well you know even though

1005
00:46:16,550 --> 00:46:13,380
we're begrudgingly acknowledge he died

1006
00:46:19,250 --> 00:46:16,560
too young because of that I don't know

1007
00:46:21,470 --> 00:46:19,260
but I think he died a natural death and

1008
00:46:24,290 --> 00:46:21,480
he's one of those people I miss

1009
00:46:26,329 --> 00:46:24,300
tremendously ah I was just joking with

1010
00:46:27,470 --> 00:46:26,339
myself and I said oh you can see and our

1011
00:46:29,750 --> 00:46:27,480
next victim

1012
00:46:33,349 --> 00:46:29,760
oh

1013
00:46:36,550 --> 00:46:33,359
yes our next and final victim

1014
00:46:39,890 --> 00:46:36,560
is a no here's another shot of Graham

1015
00:46:42,829 --> 00:46:39,900
and Christine and Helen I stay in

1016
00:46:45,290 --> 00:46:42,839
contact with Christine occasionally but

1017
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:45,300
Helen and I are back and forth regularly

1018
00:46:49,790 --> 00:46:47,760
she married an American and lives just

1019
00:46:52,490 --> 00:46:49,800
north of New York City and is a great

1020
00:46:54,950 --> 00:46:52,500
gal not surprisingly

1021
00:46:57,170 --> 00:46:54,960
it's all leading to this man

1022
00:46:58,970 --> 00:46:57,180
a distinguished American psychiatrist

1023
00:47:01,190 --> 00:46:58,980
whose unique credentials made him

1024
00:47:04,250 --> 00:47:01,200
someone we in the abduction research

1025
00:47:06,290 --> 00:47:04,260
Community could point to with pride he

1026
00:47:08,930 --> 00:47:06,300
was best known for his research into how

1027
00:47:11,690 --> 00:47:08,940
extraordinary experiences can affect

1028
00:47:14,270 --> 00:47:11,700
personal sociological and Global

1029
00:47:16,490 --> 00:47:14,280
Transformations and his death as the

1030
00:47:18,530 --> 00:47:16,500
victim of a traffic accident was

1031
00:47:21,829 --> 00:47:18,540
immediately and more than understandably

1032
00:47:25,069 --> 00:47:21,839
suspect by many who work with him cared

1033
00:47:27,770 --> 00:47:25,079
for him followed his work or saw him as

1034
00:47:30,170 --> 00:47:27,780
the Towering figure that he was in UFO

1035
00:47:32,450 --> 00:47:30,180
studies

1036
00:47:35,630 --> 00:47:32,460
Dr John Mack

1037
00:47:38,089 --> 00:47:35,640
Dr Mack was a professor emeritus of

1038
00:47:40,790 --> 00:47:38,099
Psychiatry at Harvard College

1039
00:47:44,150 --> 00:47:40,800
he was the founder of the psychiatric

1040
00:47:45,650 --> 00:47:44,160
wing of Cambridge hospital of the

1041
00:47:47,329 --> 00:47:45,660
psychiatric wing of Cambridge hospital

1042
00:47:49,670 --> 00:47:47,339
outside of Boston

1043
00:47:53,329 --> 00:47:49,680
he was a Pulitzer prize-winning

1044
00:47:56,270 --> 00:47:53,339
biographer he wrote a biography of um

1045
00:47:58,190 --> 00:47:56,280
T.E Lawrence a psychiatric biography of

1046
00:48:00,589 --> 00:47:58,200
Lawrence of Arabia and received a

1047
00:48:02,930 --> 00:48:00,599
Pulitzer Prize for it some years before

1048
00:48:05,690 --> 00:48:02,940
I met John I knew who he was in a

1049
00:48:08,210 --> 00:48:05,700
completely other way in my work as a

1050
00:48:11,510 --> 00:48:08,220
crisis intervention volunteer

1051
00:48:14,270 --> 00:48:11,520
um working at this Center on night shift

1052
00:48:16,609 --> 00:48:14,280
sometimes you'd have periods of time

1053
00:48:18,710 --> 00:48:16,619
when you had no callers and we had a

1054
00:48:20,390 --> 00:48:18,720
little Library not surprisingly all

1055
00:48:23,450 --> 00:48:20,400
books devoted to some aspect of

1056
00:48:25,670 --> 00:48:23,460
psychology and one of them was one of

1057
00:48:28,849 --> 00:48:25,680
the most highly regarded books on

1058
00:48:30,470 --> 00:48:28,859
adolescent suicide and I read it over

1059
00:48:32,569 --> 00:48:30,480
the course of quite a number of evenings

1060
00:48:34,490 --> 00:48:32,579
it was very impressed with it but the

1061
00:48:36,770 --> 00:48:34,500
name John Mack didn't mean anything to

1062
00:48:39,470 --> 00:48:36,780
me then it did a few years ago when he

1063
00:48:41,930 --> 00:48:39,480
showed up at Bud Hopkins Studio to meet

1064
00:48:44,990 --> 00:48:41,940
this painter who allegedly felt that

1065
00:48:47,270 --> 00:48:45,000
aliens were abducting human beings and

1066
00:48:50,089 --> 00:48:47,280
as a psychiatrist oh boy this was

1067
00:48:53,390 --> 00:48:50,099
somebody he sure wanted to meet

1068
00:48:56,329 --> 00:48:53,400
but learning that this Irreplaceable

1069
00:48:58,910 --> 00:48:56,339
individual just happened to be mowed

1070
00:49:02,030 --> 00:48:58,920
down by a drunken driver as he crossed

1071
00:49:06,290 --> 00:49:02,040
the street did not sit well with me and

1072
00:49:13,970 --> 00:49:10,510
John came from a very socially connected

1073
00:49:15,170 --> 00:49:13,980
well-to-do Fifth Avenue Jewish Society

1074
00:49:17,630 --> 00:49:15,180
family

1075
00:49:20,690 --> 00:49:17,640
he knew everybody he went to the right

1076
00:49:23,930 --> 00:49:20,700
schools he was comfortable in any

1077
00:49:28,190 --> 00:49:23,940
situation formal or informal he was

1078
00:49:29,809 --> 00:49:28,200
gracious gregarious uh scholarly I

1079
00:49:32,569 --> 00:49:29,819
sometimes used to think of him as a

1080
00:49:34,809 --> 00:49:32,579
brain on sticks like Ichabod Crane

1081
00:49:37,370 --> 00:49:34,819
somebody who was so

1082
00:49:38,690 --> 00:49:37,380
intellectual so many important thoughts

1083
00:49:41,390 --> 00:49:38,700
that they were hardly aware that they

1084
00:49:45,290 --> 00:49:41,400
lived in a body like many people of his

1085
00:49:47,390 --> 00:49:45,300
generation a creature of the 60s John

1086
00:49:50,450 --> 00:49:47,400
really became more and more frusted by

1087
00:49:54,050 --> 00:49:50,460
frustrated by Western philosophical

1088
00:49:57,109 --> 00:49:54,060
models and started to look East for the

1089
00:49:59,990 --> 00:49:57,119
answers as many of us did as inquiring

1090
00:50:01,849 --> 00:50:00,000
Souls at about that time and in fact I

1091
00:50:05,930 --> 00:50:01,859
think it affected his work in abduction

1092
00:50:11,270 --> 00:50:05,940
studies tremendously where Bud Hopkins

1093
00:50:14,630 --> 00:50:11,280
and David Jacobs saw a Darkness saw the

1094
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:14,640
problems saw the trauma it caused people

1095
00:50:22,130 --> 00:50:18,000
I know with Bud that it was not a

1096
00:50:24,589 --> 00:50:22,140
predisposition or an agenda it was just

1097
00:50:26,990 --> 00:50:24,599
that the huge majority of people that

1098
00:50:28,550 --> 00:50:27,000
showed up to work with but over the

1099
00:50:30,010 --> 00:50:28,560
years had been traumatized by their

1100
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:30,020
experiences it's the way it was

1101
00:50:35,270 --> 00:50:32,160
certainly some of these people showed up

1102
00:50:38,750 --> 00:50:35,280
when John became a public figure but his

1103
00:50:40,970 --> 00:50:38,760
interest his passion his desire in the

1104
00:50:42,770 --> 00:50:40,980
work was not that there were other

1105
00:50:44,329 --> 00:50:42,780
people to work with these people he took

1106
00:50:45,349 --> 00:50:44,339
them seriously he treated them with

1107
00:50:47,630 --> 00:50:45,359
respect

1108
00:50:50,770 --> 00:50:47,640
his Focus was how

1109
00:50:54,410 --> 00:50:50,780
can extraordinary human experiences

1110
00:50:57,530 --> 00:50:54,420
epitomized by the abduction experience

1111
00:51:00,589 --> 00:50:57,540
be positively transformative and what a

1112
00:51:03,530 --> 00:51:00,599
noble goal that was I knew people who

1113
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:03,540
worked with him and worked with bud I

1114
00:51:10,870 --> 00:51:07,200
visited him in Boston and at a a very

1115
00:51:14,870 --> 00:51:10,880
great point in my career in

1116
00:51:18,829 --> 00:51:14,880
1998 when I was a best-selling author

1117
00:51:21,290 --> 00:51:18,839
and getting an awful lot of Kudos he

1118
00:51:24,589 --> 00:51:21,300
said I want to get you a job speaking at

1119
00:51:27,170 --> 00:51:24,599
Harvard and I said right when flying

1120
00:51:29,930 --> 00:51:27,180
saucers land on my lawn then I will be

1121
00:51:33,170 --> 00:51:29,940
speaking at Harvard they did not land

1122
00:51:35,210 --> 00:51:33,180
and he could not get me in there but he

1123
00:51:38,510 --> 00:51:35,220
said I'm I'll sponsor you you're going

1124
00:51:40,910 --> 00:51:38,520
to speak at the psychiatric wing of

1125
00:51:41,890 --> 00:51:40,920
Cambridge hospital he said way to go all

1126
00:51:44,809 --> 00:51:41,900
right

1127
00:51:47,089 --> 00:51:44,819
for my staff for invited guests and for

1128
00:51:49,630 --> 00:51:47,099
open admission and it was one of my most

1129
00:51:52,609 --> 00:51:49,640
memorable talks I had a wonderful time

1130
00:51:55,190 --> 00:51:52,619
but it was a two-part talk he had me

1131
00:51:58,069 --> 00:51:55,200
speak on the famous rentals from forest

1132
00:51:59,890 --> 00:51:58,079
UFO incident and then joined me on stage

1133
00:52:03,650 --> 00:51:59,900
for the second half of the presentation

1134
00:52:04,670 --> 00:52:03,660
for talk I called managing stress in UFO

1135
00:52:07,430 --> 00:52:04,680
studies

1136
00:52:10,790 --> 00:52:07,440
your clients or the experiences or the

1137
00:52:13,370 --> 00:52:10,800
abductees and God knows your own and I

1138
00:52:15,950 --> 00:52:13,380
will say that after the meal after uh

1139
00:52:19,309 --> 00:52:15,960
the uh event

1140
00:52:21,470 --> 00:52:19,319
um John took myself about a dozen of his

1141
00:52:24,170 --> 00:52:21,480
associates and my brother-in-law who was

1142
00:52:27,710 --> 00:52:24,180
free that weekend and joined me

1143
00:52:29,210 --> 00:52:27,720
um at John's invitation Jim being a

1144
00:52:31,270 --> 00:52:29,220
physician who worked at Cornell

1145
00:52:34,010 --> 00:52:31,280
University's clinic

1146
00:52:35,329 --> 00:52:34,020
and we're sitting at a round table at

1147
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:35,339
probably the most expensive Japanese

1148
00:52:40,130 --> 00:52:37,920
restaurant in New England having a

1149
00:52:41,990 --> 00:52:40,140
wonderful meal and John is just regaling

1150
00:52:44,150 --> 00:52:42,000
us with stories I mean we all know

1151
00:52:45,890 --> 00:52:44,160
people like this they're magnetic

1152
00:52:48,349 --> 00:52:45,900
they're effusive we just love them by

1153
00:52:51,049 --> 00:52:48,359
Nature they're great storytellers and

1154
00:52:54,049 --> 00:52:51,059
they've always meaningful and at a

1155
00:52:55,849 --> 00:52:54,059
certain point in kind of a lull I'm

1156
00:52:57,829 --> 00:52:55,859
sitting here my brother-in-law is

1157
00:52:59,630 --> 00:52:57,839
sitting here John's sitting there he

1158
00:53:03,049 --> 00:52:59,640
turns to my brother-in-law he says Jim I

1159
00:53:05,030 --> 00:53:03,059
I owe an apology and Jim says why he

1160
00:53:06,470 --> 00:53:05,040
says I've been ignoring you all night I

1161
00:53:08,750 --> 00:53:06,480
know nothing about you except that

1162
00:53:10,609 --> 00:53:08,760
you're Peter's brother-in-law and who

1163
00:53:13,910 --> 00:53:10,619
are you what do you do

1164
00:53:16,730 --> 00:53:13,920
he said I'm a physician I'm primarily an

1165
00:53:18,950 --> 00:53:16,740
internist I I work at the Cornell

1166
00:53:21,349 --> 00:53:18,960
University Clinic my students are my

1167
00:53:23,809 --> 00:53:21,359
patients are students and faculty John

1168
00:53:25,130 --> 00:53:23,819
looks at him his eyes get big and he

1169
00:53:29,450 --> 00:53:25,140
starts to laugh

1170
00:53:32,150 --> 00:53:29,460
don't get what's funny and he actually

1171
00:53:33,650 --> 00:53:32,160
hits his knee and his tears are coming

1172
00:53:37,730 --> 00:53:33,660
to his eyes and he says to all of us I'm

1173
00:53:40,250 --> 00:53:37,740
sorry I'm sorry you're a real doctor

1174
00:53:42,470 --> 00:53:40,260
that was John Mack John's interest in

1175
00:53:45,349 --> 00:53:42,480
UFO abductions was sparked by this

1176
00:53:47,809 --> 00:53:45,359
meeting he had with Bud Hopkins in 1992

1177
00:53:50,510 --> 00:53:47,819
as John related it to me with a smile

1178
00:53:54,349 --> 00:53:50,520
some years later uh

1179
00:53:55,790 --> 00:53:54,359
the idea that aliens which is

1180
00:53:58,069 --> 00:53:55,800
questionable to start with were

1181
00:53:59,809 --> 00:53:58,079
abducting people and that the main

1182
00:54:03,589 --> 00:53:59,819
promulgator of this was a New York City

1183
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:03,599
painter you know just neon signed

1184
00:54:08,210 --> 00:54:05,280
delusional

1185
00:54:10,790 --> 00:54:08,220
approach with care but fascinated he he

1186
00:54:13,549 --> 00:54:10,800
made a meeting and he came to see him it

1187
00:54:15,170 --> 00:54:13,559
was life-changing for John Bud was an

1188
00:54:17,030 --> 00:54:15,180
artist yes but he was the best

1189
00:54:20,329 --> 00:54:17,040
self-trained investigative writer I ever

1190
00:54:22,309 --> 00:54:20,339
knew and his record keeping was superb

1191
00:54:24,530 --> 00:54:22,319
and scientific and he opened it up to

1192
00:54:26,930 --> 00:54:24,540
John and they became close colleagues

1193
00:54:29,450 --> 00:54:26,940
and Friends

1194
00:54:31,370 --> 00:54:29,460
um John

1195
00:54:33,950 --> 00:54:31,380
befriended me in a way that caught me

1196
00:54:35,630 --> 00:54:33,960
completely off guard I know that my BFA

1197
00:54:37,370 --> 00:54:35,640
in painting and film history from the

1198
00:54:39,290 --> 00:54:37,380
School of Art Visual Arts must have

1199
00:54:41,990 --> 00:54:39,300
impressed him tremendously

1200
00:54:45,230 --> 00:54:42,000
but the fact that a man of his stature

1201
00:54:47,569 --> 00:54:45,240
treated me with such respect because I

1202
00:54:49,670 --> 00:54:47,579
was Bud Hopkins assistant because I've

1203
00:54:51,710 --> 00:54:49,680
been doing the work for years because I

1204
00:54:53,210 --> 00:54:51,720
knew something about it firsthand from

1205
00:54:56,030 --> 00:54:53,220
growing up with a sister who had had

1206
00:54:57,710 --> 00:54:56,040
these experiences when he finished his

1207
00:55:01,250 --> 00:54:57,720
manuscript for his important book

1208
00:55:04,069 --> 00:55:01,260
abduction he gave copies to several

1209
00:55:05,450 --> 00:55:04,079
people to read to find errors it had

1210
00:55:08,930 --> 00:55:05,460
obviously already been professionally

1211
00:55:11,030 --> 00:55:08,940
proved I could not find a semicolon out

1212
00:55:13,010 --> 00:55:11,040
of place there was no misspelling it was

1213
00:55:15,290 --> 00:55:13,020
a Flawless manuscript except for one

1214
00:55:18,109 --> 00:55:15,300
thing he used pseudonyms for all the

1215
00:55:20,510 --> 00:55:18,119
people in the book except one

1216
00:55:23,089 --> 00:55:20,520
and I knew who it was and it was a very

1217
00:55:26,030 --> 00:55:23,099
special case involving without going

1218
00:55:29,450 --> 00:55:26,040
into any detail even now a very ugly

1219
00:55:31,910 --> 00:55:29,460
court case revolving around custody of

1220
00:55:34,569 --> 00:55:31,920
an individual and had this come to

1221
00:55:38,270 --> 00:55:34,579
public knowledge about this individual

1222
00:55:41,030 --> 00:55:38,280
it could have been horrifically ugly he

1223
00:55:43,609 --> 00:55:41,040
was so thankful to me for finding that

1224
00:55:45,349 --> 00:55:43,619
one error in the book he inscribed my

1225
00:55:48,530 --> 00:55:45,359
copy of the book for Peter our number

1226
00:55:50,030 --> 00:55:48,540
one sleuth now I knew what it was in

1227
00:55:52,790 --> 00:55:50,040
reference to but do you think that has

1228
00:55:54,770 --> 00:55:52,800
stopped me from using that quote over

1229
00:55:55,849 --> 00:55:54,780
time and saying this is what John Mack

1230
00:55:58,130 --> 00:55:55,859
thought of me

1231
00:56:01,250 --> 00:55:58,140
bud and John disagreed on certain things

1232
00:56:04,510 --> 00:56:01,260
but there is no question that they were

1233
00:56:09,250 --> 00:56:04,520
absolutely devoted to each other and

1234
00:56:13,309 --> 00:56:09,260
their dialogue at Faneuil Hall in Boston

1235
00:56:15,849 --> 00:56:13,319
on the abduction phenomena is still the

1236
00:56:20,150 --> 00:56:15,859
finest Exchange

1237
00:56:22,730 --> 00:56:20,160
recorded between Scholars on this often

1238
00:56:26,930 --> 00:56:22,740
exaggerated misrepresented terribly

1239
00:56:28,910 --> 00:56:26,940
complex and debased subject that exists

1240
00:56:30,609 --> 00:56:28,920
out there I think it's probably

1241
00:56:34,069 --> 00:56:30,619
somewhere on YouTube

1242
00:56:37,069 --> 00:56:34,079
and I've listened to it a number of

1243
00:56:38,030 --> 00:56:37,079
times and been tremendously impressed by

1244
00:56:41,030 --> 00:56:38,040
it

1245
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:41,040
however shortly thereafter that John

1246
00:56:46,670 --> 00:56:43,440
became interested in the subject Harvard

1247
00:56:48,470 --> 00:56:46,680
has distinguished the university and I'm

1248
00:56:51,410 --> 00:56:48,480
sure full of very self-important

1249
00:56:53,150 --> 00:56:51,420
administrators was horrified as more and

1250
00:56:55,970 --> 00:56:53,160
more National than International

1251
00:56:57,770 --> 00:56:55,980
attention not to John Mack Pulitzer

1252
00:57:00,349 --> 00:56:57,780
prize-winning psychiatric biographer of

1253
00:57:03,410 --> 00:57:00,359
T.E Lawrence but John Mack alien

1254
00:57:05,990 --> 00:57:03,420
abduction researcher was brought to bear

1255
00:57:10,069 --> 00:57:06,000
and shown a light that they considered

1256
00:57:14,809 --> 00:57:10,079
unwelcome on their University and so I

1257
00:57:16,910 --> 00:57:14,819
think it was in 1994 John became it was

1258
00:57:19,430 --> 00:57:16,920
the first time since Timothy good was

1259
00:57:22,370 --> 00:57:19,440
censured and lost his bid to stay a

1260
00:57:25,190 --> 00:57:22,380
faculty members kicked out John came

1261
00:57:27,829 --> 00:57:25,200
back with guns blazing with a very good

1262
00:57:31,730 --> 00:57:27,839
lawyer and proof to spare and Harvard

1263
00:57:33,710 --> 00:57:31,740
welcomed him back with open arms the

1264
00:57:36,470 --> 00:57:33,720
exchanges between him and Bud at that

1265
00:57:37,670 --> 00:57:36,480
point were I'm back but boy I couldn't

1266
00:57:39,950 --> 00:57:37,680
believe what they put me through

1267
00:57:43,549 --> 00:57:39,960
essentially actually

1268
00:57:46,670 --> 00:57:43,559
me and Bud at some point

1269
00:57:49,190 --> 00:57:46,680
uh great shot of Bud and John

1270
00:57:55,010 --> 00:57:49,200
okay this is the New York Times coverage

1271
00:57:58,870 --> 00:57:55,020
of it so this brings us to the uh day in

1272
00:58:02,089 --> 00:57:58,880
question of September 27

1273
00:58:04,790 --> 00:58:02,099
2004. John had traveled to England to

1274
00:58:06,650 --> 00:58:04,800
lecture for the T.E Lawrence society and

1275
00:58:08,750 --> 00:58:06,660
gave a talk early in the day that was so

1276
00:58:10,930 --> 00:58:08,760
well received he was asked to give

1277
00:58:14,329 --> 00:58:10,940
another talk later in the day

1278
00:58:17,049 --> 00:58:14,339
and he was crossing the street to as I

1279
00:58:20,270 --> 00:58:17,059
recall have something to eat

1280
00:58:22,849 --> 00:58:20,280
and as he stepped into the road a

1281
00:58:24,589 --> 00:58:22,859
drunken Lorry driver came roaring around

1282
00:58:27,950 --> 00:58:24,599
the corner I don't want to get too

1283
00:58:29,870 --> 00:58:27,960
graphic here but he hit him so hard John

1284
00:58:31,309 --> 00:58:29,880
was dead in the air there's no question

1285
00:58:33,770 --> 00:58:31,319
in my mind

1286
00:58:35,230 --> 00:58:33,780
the Lorry driver was on his fifth

1287
00:58:37,789 --> 00:58:35,240
suspension

1288
00:58:40,970 --> 00:58:37,799
I at the time was less than 50 miles

1289
00:58:43,849 --> 00:58:40,980
away I was in Suffolk and I had just

1290
00:58:46,250 --> 00:58:43,859
called Nick Pope a friend who I was

1291
00:58:48,770 --> 00:58:46,260
going to be staying with in London and

1292
00:58:50,930 --> 00:58:48,780
we have kind of a banter's sense of

1293
00:58:54,650 --> 00:58:50,940
humor and I said he picked up the phone

1294
00:58:56,270 --> 00:58:54,660
his classic Posh English voice and I

1295
00:58:57,650 --> 00:58:56,280
said some wise guy remark and he was

1296
00:58:59,930 --> 00:58:57,660
absolutely quiet from him when he said

1297
00:59:02,150 --> 00:58:59,940
you haven't heard John Mack was just

1298
00:59:05,390 --> 00:59:02,160
killed by a drunken driver

1299
00:59:07,910 --> 00:59:05,400
I was floored I was horrified my first

1300
00:59:09,109 --> 00:59:07,920
thought was oh my God he was murdered he

1301
00:59:11,089 --> 00:59:09,119
was murdered

1302
00:59:12,650 --> 00:59:11,099
when I got back to the States I made it

1303
00:59:15,109 --> 00:59:12,660
my business to do as thorough as an

1304
00:59:16,910 --> 00:59:15,119
investigation as I could I got hold of

1305
00:59:19,309 --> 00:59:16,920
all the court records I got hold of

1306
00:59:22,789 --> 00:59:19,319
background information on the driver

1307
00:59:25,510 --> 00:59:22,799
I got the schematics for the location

1308
00:59:29,150 --> 00:59:25,520
I visualized a Manchurian Candidate

1309
00:59:30,309 --> 00:59:29,160
situation with a drunken driver waiting

1310
00:59:33,650 --> 00:59:30,319
over here

1311
00:59:35,150 --> 00:59:33,660
for maybe the possibility that Mac was

1312
00:59:37,670 --> 00:59:35,160
going to cross the street at a certain

1313
00:59:39,890 --> 00:59:37,680
time with say a three-person support

1314
00:59:42,410 --> 00:59:39,900
intelligence team on the roofs with

1315
00:59:44,270 --> 00:59:42,420
earpieces with mics

1316
00:59:45,710 --> 00:59:44,280
it couldn't have been engineered it

1317
00:59:49,069 --> 00:59:45,720
couldn't have been done you know what

1318
00:59:54,289 --> 00:59:51,589
I've been to England 25 times I'm sure

1319
00:59:57,430 --> 00:59:54,299
and I still sometimes look the wrong way

1320
01:00:00,710 --> 00:59:57,440
when I cross the street this has become

1321
01:00:03,770 --> 01:00:00,720
such a problem that some years ago not

1322
01:00:05,870 --> 01:00:03,780
every street Crossing but almost every

1323
01:00:10,190 --> 01:00:05,880
street Crossing in every city in the UK

1324
01:00:13,130 --> 01:00:10,200
It's a Wonderful letter that he wrote to

1325
01:00:14,750 --> 01:00:13,140
Bud now that the matter of Harvard's

1326
01:00:16,730 --> 01:00:14,760
questions about my work have been

1327
01:00:18,770 --> 01:00:16,740
resolved amicably I want to thank you

1328
01:00:21,109 --> 01:00:18,780
for your help in the process it meant a

1329
01:00:23,150 --> 01:00:21,119
lot to me personally and I believe for

1330
01:00:25,010 --> 01:00:23,160
enabling the further explanation of

1331
01:00:27,170 --> 01:00:25,020
understanding of the abduction phenomena

1332
01:00:29,030 --> 01:00:27,180
with best wishes and then a line through

1333
01:00:32,089 --> 01:00:29,040
it that says love

1334
01:00:38,930 --> 01:00:33,770
the book

1335
01:00:40,609 --> 01:00:38,940
uh promo for my talk at the hospital

1336
01:00:43,190 --> 01:00:40,619
John again

1337
01:00:46,490 --> 01:00:43,200
London

1338
01:00:47,870 --> 01:00:46,500
this is what is now painted on the

1339
01:00:52,250 --> 01:00:47,880
street corners

1340
01:00:54,770 --> 01:00:52,260
look right not left

1341
01:00:57,789 --> 01:00:54,780
I don't believe John was murdered I

1342
01:01:01,490 --> 01:00:57,799
believe it was a damned freak accident

1343
01:01:04,730 --> 01:01:01,500
in court his family tremendously

1344
01:01:06,770 --> 01:01:04,740
Progressive humanitarian people ex-wife

1345
01:01:09,170 --> 01:01:06,780
kids girlfriend

1346
01:01:11,950 --> 01:01:09,180
pleaded for understanding

1347
01:01:14,870 --> 01:01:11,960
for the homicidal maniac

1348
01:01:17,030 --> 01:01:14,880
whose Reckless action caused their loved

1349
01:01:20,510 --> 01:01:17,040
one's death because they recognize that

1350
01:01:22,730 --> 01:01:20,520
alcoholism is a disease true enough

1351
01:01:24,609 --> 01:01:22,740
the judge and myself included were not

1352
01:01:28,190 --> 01:01:24,619
nearly as enlightened

1353
01:01:31,430 --> 01:01:28,200
he went to jail but due to some very

1354
01:01:34,549 --> 01:01:31,440
liberal guidelines in British sentencing

1355
01:01:37,490 --> 01:01:34,559
I think he was out 18 months later

1356
01:01:39,710 --> 01:01:37,500
but when all is said and done with John

1357
01:01:42,829 --> 01:01:39,720
with Graham

1358
01:01:47,870 --> 01:01:45,410
the people that I've gone through here

1359
01:01:49,910 --> 01:01:47,880
in the most cursory manner the real

1360
01:01:51,710 --> 01:01:49,920
question and the real thing to remember

1361
01:01:54,109 --> 01:01:51,720
is not how they died

1362
01:01:56,270 --> 01:01:54,119
but how they lived what they did with

1363
01:01:58,789 --> 01:01:56,280
their lives what they achieved the

1364
01:02:00,530 --> 01:01:58,799
impact they had on other people if we

1365
01:02:02,630 --> 01:02:00,540
all become obsessed with how we're going

1366
01:02:04,609 --> 01:02:02,640
to be checking out of this world it's

1367
01:02:06,289 --> 01:02:04,619
going to be a pretty sorry state

1368
01:02:09,230 --> 01:02:06,299
there's a wonderful

1369
01:02:11,690 --> 01:02:09,240
old Sicilian proverb that I've heard in

1370
01:02:14,750 --> 01:02:11,700
Sicilian and so beautiful and poetic

1371
01:02:17,030 --> 01:02:14,760
Sicilian dialect but in English it's

1372
01:02:17,990 --> 01:02:17,040
pretty good which is

1373
01:02:25,549 --> 01:02:18,000
um

1374
01:02:27,829 --> 01:02:25,559
living

1375
01:02:29,809 --> 01:02:27,839
well is the best revenge

1376
01:02:32,930 --> 01:02:29,819
so live well

1377
01:02:34,970 --> 01:02:32,940
enjoy yourselves be courageous if you're

1378
01:02:37,309 --> 01:02:34,980
involved in this work just coming to

1379
01:02:38,329 --> 01:02:37,319
conferences every once in a while keep

1380
01:02:42,049 --> 01:02:38,339
doing it

1381
01:02:45,410 --> 01:02:42,059
educate yourself educate your friends if

1382
01:02:46,970 --> 01:02:45,420
you're in the trade so to say keep up

1383
01:02:47,870 --> 01:02:46,980
the good work

1384
01:02:50,990 --> 01:02:47,880
um

1385
01:02:54,530 --> 01:02:51,000
I think the forces that be are much

1386
01:02:58,190 --> 01:02:54,540
better uh served by sending people like

1387
01:03:00,710 --> 01:02:58,200
uh those we've discussed myself my

1388
01:03:04,010 --> 01:03:00,720
colleagues lots of vitamins because if

1389
01:03:05,589 --> 01:03:04,020
we were taken out and uh it seems uh

1390
01:03:08,809 --> 01:03:05,599
like it might be a dark scenario

1391
01:03:11,030 --> 01:03:08,819
attention will be drawn that is unwanted